Perhaps one of the strangest and most socially violating things I've ever experienced was being introduced to a Korean person. Within the first four minutes, they had extracted an extremely uncomfortable amount of information while our mutual friend stood by, watching and nodding as they confirmed all of my answers- two years worth of trust and what-not required to gain that.
요약: 서울에서 살면서 젊은 게이한국인들이 첫인상으로 보통 질문 5개 물어본다. 이름이 뭐냐, 몇 살이냐, 어디서 왔냐, 월급이 얼마냐, 성향이 뭐냐? 성향은 항문성교 할 때 마짜 (남자성향)나 때짜 (여성성향)이냐는 의미이다. 그래서 그 질문에 대해 생각하면 매우 간단하고 단도직입적인 그리고 매우 무례한 질문이다. 성향에 대해 질문을 받은 12명의 사람들은 너무 불안해하는 느낌이었고, 응답 이 후에 12명의 그들은 서로 미소로 속삭이고 인터뷰를 끝냈다. 첫 인상에 자주 프라이버시의 침해와 반대심문 같은 인터뷰를 받은 듯 보여서 그 행동의 이유를 알고싶었다. 한국인들이 목적적이고 직접적인 사람이기 때문에 그러한 질문을 물어보는 것일까? 한 명의 마짜친구는 친구들을 충분할만큼 사귀었기 때문에 데이트하려는 때짜들을 만나고 싶다고했다. 그래서 시간을 낭비하지 않도록 성향이 뭐냐고 물어본다. 그것은사람들이 기본적인 편의는 시간낭비라고 생각하기 때문에 사람들이 이미 작은 알고 있는 정보에 대해서 해산시켜야 하는지 그리고 공격적으로 전체 하위문화를 주도하는 이것은 무엇일까? 그리고 게이한국인들은 왜 그렇게 생각할까?
It was beyond disconcerting but I soon found that it was a normal practice over here in the Hermit Country, and perhaps in Asia as well. I soon learned to adjust and over the course of a very long period of time, grew confident enough to refuse answering questions I didn't like or felt no need to answer. Suddenly, I was back in my comfort zone. Then, I was taken for the first time to a Korean gay bar, and BAM! Back into a world of reeling discomforts.
Over the course of my year in Seoul, I discovered that a lot of the young gay guys I would end up interacting with had basically boiled that initial grill (첫인상) to five very simple, fast, and increasingly violating questions.
1. 이름이 뭐냐 (What's your name)
2. 몇살이냐 (How old are you)
3. 어디서 왔냐 (Where are you from)
4. 월급이 얼마냐 (How much money do you make)
5. 성향이 뭐냐 (What is your sexual position)
Upon reaching question four, I was already wriggling with displeasure at the conversation. I'm trying to down a bottle of soju here with you and our mutual friends- why do you need to know how much money I make? I'd dance around the question as best I could, and always qualify it somehow- "Oh, I make xxx amount, but I send at least half of it home every month". The truth, but embarrassingly unnecessary.
Then, we hit question five, and I'd immediately blush. The first time someone asked me was in front of a group of twelve people total (among which I knew only one), all staring intently at me and waiting for me to answer. I was already anxious and nervous about the whole situation- no one was speaking English and I was struggling just to follow the conversation! I fumbled through some BS answer to try to avoid giving any sort of definitive response, but it was too late- the others would smile and whisper among themselves, and the interview was over.
I had hoped that this would be an isolated incident, but it wasn't. Every time I would be out with some of the Korean gay buddies (regardless of how well I knew them), these five questions would come out as a sort of test for me to pass- not only with how I answered, but the exact vocabulary I would respond with (성향, for example, literally means 'tendency, inclination', but among the boys, it means top or bottom). There are special, Korean-only words for the positions, and my understanding and use of them would leave a variety of impressions.
Looking back to the year in Seoul where I was repeatedly subjected to this, I think I'm beginning to realize the reason for the whole process. It was a sort of interview, I think, because Koreans in general are very goal-oriented, 목적-driven people. Once, a guy told me that he has to ask right away because he was a bottom (마짜) and only ever was interested in meeting a top (때짜)- he already had enough friends (all bottoms) and only wanted a boyfriend and didn't want to waste his time.
It reminded me of this strange and prevalent belief back in the States that men and women can't be friends. Tops and bottoms couldn't be friends, according to that group philosophy, and it just weirded me the hell out. I have gay friends back home that I've known for years and whom I had no idea (or interest) as to whether they are a top or bottom. To me, it's always been irrelevant.
Yet, to many of these young guys, they just don't know how to interact with someone if there isn't a clear goal in mind. They have their friends that they 'play' (놀다) with, and the boys that they want to play with. The aggressiveness of it all was strange and frightening to me and so far, wholly absent in the more provincial city that I currently reside in.
Perhaps it's just inner-sight blindness, but I can't really recall anything too terribly similar to this at home. Readers, writers, and the community at large: any thoughts as to how this came about? I have some ideas, but before I share them, I'd like to hear back. What is it that drives an entire sub-culture to such aggressiveness to the point where people would dismiss an entire half of their already-small subculture simply because they believe even basic friendliness to be a waste of time?
Please share. I hope to include reactions and thoughts from the community along with my own ideas in the next entry.
-Enzo
First of all, just wanted to say thanks for what you're doing. LGBTQ issues need a LOT more coverage than they currently get in Korea. Thanks for doing your part.
ReplyDeleteI'm also a gay westerner (American) who's lived in Korea for some time (10+ years). I've been in a long-term relationship with a Korean for eight of those years. I also speak fluent Korean. So I have a bit of experience when it comes to matters like these.
Your 'interview' experience is very familiar to me, and you are right to suspect a cultural basis; however I don't think 'goal oriented,' and/or 'purpose-driven' are the traits that informs this behavioral trend.
I would argue that the reasons Korean gay people - particularly young gay people - engage in such pigeon-holing more than other cultures, are routed primarily in the cultural trait of collectivism and secondarily in the cultural trait of long-term orientation. (See http://geert-hofstede.com for an introduction to social psychologist Dr. Geert Hofstede’s theory on cultural dimensions).
In highly collectivist societies like Korea, individuals derive their sense of self through identification with familial, social, and cultural institutions. Most extra-familial relationships develop in some kind of institutional setting (school, work, church), and non-institutionally informed relationships are more rare. It might be for this reason that despite the fact that arranged marriage is not as common as it once was, straight Koreans – particularly those who’ve ‘graduated’ from the institutions of their youth – have difficulty finding marital partners and require the artificial institution provided by ‘matchmakers.’ Collectivism is so high in Korea, that individuals have difficulty forming basic relationships outside established institutions.
As there aren’t any universally culturally sanctioned institutions for gay people, young gay people do learn how to meet new people outside of institutional settings. Yet the collectivist inclination is strong, and gay Koreans tend to ‘create’ artificial insider-outsider groups, the boundaries of which they guard with more vigil than the members of a western culture ‘clique.’
continued from above...
ReplyDeleteMy partner belongs to one such group. Essentially it’s a club that formed online (initially, though now most activities are offline) for Korean gays born in the same year (친구). Though the club has both 대짜 (top) and 마짜 (bottom) members, there is a strict and explicit (written) prohibition on sexual fraternization within the group, and members found guilty (and there have been a few) are quickly ejected from the official group (though not always ostracized).
Though my partner and I had been together long before this club came into existence, and even though I know and am friendly with many of the club members, I am clearly an outsider. Is this because I’m a Westerner? I’m not sure. The primary criterion for membership seems to be birthdate (all younger or older partners seem to be equally ‘othered’). That said, I can’t say for certain that the group would openly accept a foreign member who shared their birth year (seems unlikely). Another interesting phenomena within the larger group has been the formation of inter-group 마짜 and 대짜 ‘cliques.’
It seems to me that because groups like these lack the structure of a culturally recognized institution with bylaws, traditions, standards, and recognizable social norms, members tend to be more choosey about whom they let join for the relevant fear that too much in-and-out within the group will lead to unresolvable conflict and dissolution. Simply the transient nature of expatriate status might be grounds for exclusion.
So in your case, these individuals grilling you may have already disqualified you as fit for joining their group of friends, and while they might be interested in you romantically or at least physically, if they don’t perceive compatibility, they want to quickly move on to the next prospect.
The secondary trait I think informs this behavior is Korean’s tendency for long-term perspective. Again, culturally speaking, Korean’s have a much longer perspective horizon than people from other countries. This seems to be augmented for at least some gay people as the social structure for recognizing long-term gay relationships doesn’t exist. Of course this varies from individual to individual, but a common theme I’ve found in the gay community in Korea is that many are searching for a compatible long-term partner, and many believe their prospects for finding one to be quite slim. Having ‘reached a certain age,’ far too many Korean gays find themselves unable to avoid marrying members of the opposite sex to appease family and cultural norms (It’s very hard to ‘succeed’ in Korea as a single person, let alone a gay person). Many of these gay people are operating under the reality or at least the perception that unless the stars line up just right, they may not find a long-term mate.
These are my thoughts on this issue. Thanks again for bringing these issues to an audience. I hope to see more of your posting in the future.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeletecontinued from above...
My partner belongs to one such group. Essentially it’s a club that formed online (initially, though now most activities are offline) for Korean gays born in the same year (친구). Though the club has both 대짜 (top) and 마짜 (bottom) members, there is a strict and explicit (written) prohibition on sexual fraternization within the group, and members found guilty (and there have been a few) are quickly ejected from the official group (though not always ostracized).
Though my partner and I had been together long before this club came into existence, and even though I know and am friendly with many of the club members, I am clearly an outsider. Is this because I’m a Westerner? I’m not sure. The primary criterion for membership seems to be birthdate (all younger or older partners seem to be equally ‘othered’). That said, I can’t say for certain that the group would openly accept a foreign member who shared their birth year (seems unlikely). Another interesting phenomena within the larger group has been the formation of inter-group 마짜 and 대짜 ‘cliques.’
It seems to me that because groups like these lack the structure of a culturally recognized institution with bylaws, traditions, standards, and recognizable social norms, members tend to be more choosey about whom they let join for the relevant fear that too much in-and-out within the group will lead to unresolvable conflict and dissolution. Simply the transient nature of expatriate status might be grounds for exclusion.
So in your case, these individuals grilling you may have already disqualified you as fit for joining their group of friends, and while they might be interested in you romantically or at least physically, if they don’t perceive compatibility, they want to quickly move on to the next prospect.
The secondary trait I think informs this behavior is Korean’s tendency for long-term perspective. Again, culturally speaking, Korean’s have a much longer perspective horizon than people from other countries. This seems to be augmented for at least some gay people as the social structure for recognizing long-term gay relationships doesn’t exist. Of course this varies from individual to individual, but a common theme I’ve found in the gay community in Korea is that many are searching for a compatible long-term partner, and many believe their prospects for finding one to be quite slim. Having ‘reached a certain age,’ far too many Korean gays find themselves unable to avoid marrying members of the opposite sex to appease family and cultural norms (It’s very hard to ‘succeed’ in Korea as a single person, let alone a gay person). Many of these gay people are operating under the reality or at least the perception that unless the stars line up just right, they may not find a long-term mate.
These are my thoughts on this issue. Thanks again for bringing these issues to an audience. I hope to see more of your posting in the future.
Continued from above...
ReplyDeleteMy partner belongs to one such group. Essentially it’s a club that formed online (initially, though now most activities are offline) for Korean gays born in the same year (친구). Though the club has both 대짜 (top) and 마짜 (bottom) members, there is a strict and explicit (written) prohibition on sexual fraternization within the group, and members found guilty (and there have been a few) are quickly ejected from the official group (though not always ostracized).
Though my partner and I had been together long before this club came into existence, and even though I know and am friendly with many of the club members, I am clearly an outsider. Is this because I’m a Westerner? I’m not sure. The primary criterion for membership seems to be birthdate (all younger or older partners seem to be equally ‘othered’). That said, I can’t say for certain that the group would openly accept a foreign member who shared their birth year (seems unlikely). Another interesting phenomena within the larger group has been the formation of inter-group 마짜 and 대짜 ‘cliques.’
It seems to me that because groups like these lack the structure of a culturally recognized institution with bylaws, traditions, standards, and recognizable social norms, members tend to be more choosey about whom they let join for the relevant fear that too much in-and-out within the group will lead to unresolvable conflict and dissolution. Simply the transient nature of expatriate status might be grounds for exclusion.
So in your case, these individuals grilling you may have already disqualified you as fit for joining their group of friends, and while they might be interested in you romantically or at least physically, if they don’t perceive compatibility, they want to quickly move on to the next prospect.
The secondary trait I think informs this behavior is Korean’s tendency for long-term perspective. Again, culturally speaking, Korean’s have a much longer perspective horizon than people from other countries. This seems to be augmented for at least some gay people as the social structure for recognizing long-term gay relationships doesn’t exist. Of course this varies from individual to individual, but a common theme I’ve found in the gay community in Korea is that many are searching for a compatible long-term partner, and many believe their prospects for finding one to be quite slim. Having ‘reached a certain age,’ far too many Korean gays find themselves unable to avoid marrying members of the opposite sex to appease family and cultural norms (It’s very hard to ‘succeed’ in Korea as a single person, let alone a gay person). Many of these gay people are operating under the reality or at least the perception that unless the stars line up just right, they may not find a long-term mate.
These are my thoughts on this issue. Thanks again for bringing these issues to an audience. I hope to see more of your posting in the future.
Hi Anonymous,
DeleteThank you for sharing in the discussion!
I am copying a quote from the citation you suggested:
"South Korea, with a score of 18 is considered a collectivistic society. This is manifest in a close long-term commitment to the member 'group', be that a family, extended family, or extended relationships. Loyalty in a collectivist culture is paramount, and over-rides most other societal rules and regulations. The society fosters strong relationships where everyone takes responsibility for fellow members of their group. In collectivist societies offence leads to shame and loss of face, employer/employee relationships are perceived in moral terms (like a family link), hiring and promotion decisions take account of the employee’s in-group, management is the management of groups."
-Geert Hofstede at http://geert-hofstede.com/south-korea.html
I think this is an interesting point to bring into the discussion, yet other sociologists have noted somewhat shifts in values in South Korea. For example, I am uploading an image here in a new blog post http://koreangendercafe.blogspot.kr/2012/08/values-modernization-theory-world.html that shows changes for South Korea in the World Values Survey at http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/wvs/articles/folder_published/article_base_54
As a long-term expat who may have seen shifts in society, I thank you for sharing your views and discussing the 친구 group. Have a great day!
I have noticed a lot of the same trends that you mention here, especially on the tendency of Koreans to struggle with forming relationships outside of the few socially acceptable places in which a person is allowed to make friends- school, work, and army if they're a men. Those are old, ancient institutions in Korea and they've had centuries to evolve a societal set of rules to deal with them in acceptable ways.
DeleteHowever, the recent 'blow up' of homosexual presence, visibility, and (begrudged) acceptance has happened far too quickly for the system to naturally adopt. I can certainly see that as playing a part in why gay Koreans perform this interview in even informal social situations. However, I still see the main force behind it, especially in clarifying the difference between tops and bottoms is the idea of a goal or purpose. I was always told that Asians are a great deal more 'practical' than Westerners and I think a bottom searching only for a top to talk to is only an extension of that overall cultural trend.